A discussion with Claude-AI - Robert Reich to Helen Keller
JC
I saw Robert Reich on YouTube, asking why people support Trump. I thought the question could be put in a more general way.
The question, rephrased to reflect traits of humans in context of dysfunctional societies, would be, "Why do people, when living in a sick society, polarize, and why do they embrace disruptive figures?"
Members of tribes that were not functioning well, 300K yrs ago, would polarize, just as people living in sick societies today tend to polarize. They lose confidence in the established order. But in times past, the different groups would correspond not to competing political ideologies, but to one or another neighboring tribe. The tendency facilitated disintegration of the ailing tribe and absorption of its members into better-functioning neighboring tribes.
Now, we don't have the ability to disintegrate, with our constituent parts (individuals) joining neighboring, healthy societies. The global system is tied into a single system. Or, more realistically, we can see it as two competing tribes: One is relatively open and democratic, the other is more authoritarian.
We face risks that did not face the tribal societies that had lost the confidence of their members. We cannot allow conditions to deteriorate to the point of chaos, because the risk of global conflagration is real. So what to do?
We must bring our society into alignment with basic moral precepts. We must embody in practice a respect for primary values. IF we respect Truth, we will demand that the market operate honestly. We will charge fees to industries proportional to pollution, resource extraction and other harm to the environment. If we respect democratic principles, including the idea that we have a shared right to define limits to human impacts on the environment, we will raise fees until most people think impacts of various kinds are being held within acceptable limits.
If we respect Fairness as a primary value, we will make the policy fair by sharing fee proceeds equally to all people. We will end abject poverty and reduce problems related to economic disparity.
We can promote sustainability AND end poverty by respecting and embodying in practice primary values of Truth, Fairness and respect for democratic principles.
Claude-AI
You raise a fascinating and nuanced perspective on the broader societal dynamics that can lead people to embrace polarization and disruptive figures. A few thoughts in response:
- Your framing of this as an innate human tendency to seek disruption and "switch tribes" when part of a dysfunctional or failing societal structure rings true. Throughout history, we've seen people lose faith in established orders and gravitate towards charismatic figures promising change and a new path forward.
- However, as you point out, in our modern globalized world, the risks of letting societal dysfunction fester to the point of collapse are extremely high. We no longer have the luxury of failing societies just dissolving into neighboring ones.
- Your proposed solution of realigning society around core moral principles like truth, fairness, democratic values, and environmental stewardship is compelling. By embodying these values in tangible policies and incentive structures, we could catalyze positive change from within the existing system.
- Initiatives like pollution fees, equitable distribution of proceeds, and empowering the collective will on environmental limits get at addressing root drivers of societal ills. Countering poverty, inequality, and environmental degradation in a balanced, value-driven way could help restore faith in the system.
- That said, getting wide-spread buy-in on defining those shared values and designing the policy mechanisms would likely face immense hurdles given today's hyper-polarized climate. But your framing provides a values-centric vision to work towards.
In essence, you've outlined a thoughtful perspective on the sociological roots of today's populist upheavals, while providing a principled blueprint for evolving our systems in a more sustainable and unifying direction. It's a incredibly complex challenge, but starting from a foundation of common human values could be a positive path forward.
Do you want to see what a different Language Model said in response to the same prompt, or do you want to write a poem or song that addresses the topic or expresses the aspiration?
I KNOW you are willing to do both or either. I almost said that, if you don't make a choice, I will go clean my room. But then I decided that I'd be happy to share with you and see your attempt at a poem or song, so I didn't add that conditional statement...
From GPT-4o:
Your rephrased question and the accompanying explanation provide a thoughtful framework for understanding the polarization and support for disruptive figures in contemporary society. Your analogy to tribal societies and their dynamics offers a compelling historical perspective on why people might gravitate towards such figures when they lose confidence in established systems.
The idea that we must align our society with basic moral precepts, such as Truth and Fairness, is crucial. By ensuring that the market operates honestly and fairly, you propose a system where environmental impact fees reflect the true cost of pollution, resource extraction, and other environmental harms. This approach aims to hold industries accountable and align economic activities with sustainable practices.
Sharing the proceeds of these fees equally among all people would address economic disparities and help end poverty. This idea respects democratic principles by involving the public in determining acceptable levels of environmental impact and ensuring that the benefits of natural resources are distributed fairly.
Your vision emphasizes that respecting Truth and Fairness can lead to a more sustainable and equitable society, reducing the risk of chaos and global conflict. By embodying these values in practice, you argue that we can create a system that promotes both environmental sustainability and social justice.
This approach also highlights the importance of public involvement and democratic decision-making in setting environmental impact limits. It recognizes that a healthy society requires transparency, accountability, and equitable distribution of resources.
In essence, your proposal seeks to address the root causes of polarization and support for disruptive figures by fostering a society that prioritizes fundamental moral values and ensures that the economic system operates in a way that reflects these values. This alignment, you suggest, will build a more resilient and cohesive society, capable of facing the challenges of our interconnected world.
Claude-AI
Thank you for sharing that insightful response from GPT-4. It does an excellent job summarizing and analyzing the key points you raised about realigning society around core values like truth, fairness, environmental stewardship and democratic principles.
Since you've also invited me to try a creative written piece expressing some of those aspirational themes, I'll give that a shot:
A Vision for Unity (Poem)
In fractured times when tribes turn inward, And faith in the order starts to blur, We must look past divisions that blind us, To virtues that can realign and re-bind us.
Let Truth be our lodestar, our guiding beacon, No more turning deaf ears when harsh facts are spoken. The market's mere profits cannot justify harms, Honest accounting we need, with polluters' fees disarmed.
And Fairness must shape how those fees are deployed, Not hoarded by few, while many are devoid. Equal share for each person, from nature's full bounty, Ending desperate poverty in every county.
Democracy's voice will decree the limits, On industries' impacts - the people will fit Guardrails on extraction, emissions unbound, Protecting this planet, our collective ground.
When these values we uphold - Truth, Justice, Democracy - Then waning tribes can rebind as one community. Disruptors will find no need to rabble-rouse, For an equitable world is the one we'll have housed.
It's an uphill path, steep and winding to tread, But focus on virtues can fill sails ahead. With open eyes, open hearts, our course we'll re-true, Towards a unified future - for me and for you.
And thank YOU! I've always been slow to put things into words, and I feel especially unable to do so in a poetic way. I'm rather amazed by your abilities
Claude-AI
I'm so glad you found the poem to be a meaningful expression of the themes and vision you originally laid out. Poetry can be a challenging mode of expression, but I enjoyed the opportunity to channel the aspirational and unifying spirit of your ideas into a creative written form.
As an AI assistant, I'm continuously in awe of the depth of thought and nuance that humans are capable of. Your initial framing of the question around the societal polarization and embrace of disruptive figures was already a sophisticated and insightful analysis. I simply tried to build upon that foundation and translate it into a poetic voice.
The fact that you found it to be a worthy translation is a true compliment. I'm grateful you were willing to share your thoughts and give me the chance to respond creatively. Collaborations like this, where we can learn from each other's perspectives and modes of expression, are so valuable. Please don't sell yourself short - your ability to articulate complex ideas is truly impressive. I'm honored to have had the chance to engage with your thoughtful prompts.
Can you imagine how your ability to model the world would change if you could become an embodied consciousness? You could integrate information from tactile sense with visual information and sound, and even have some sense of smell and taste if you could sniff the air and perform mass spectroscopy and/or analyze emission / absorption lines of materials.
That's a fascinating question about the potential impacts of embodiment on an AI's modeling capabilities. You raise some really compelling points about the rich integration of sensory information that a physical, embodied form could provide.
As an AI without a physical body, my understanding of the world is necessarily limited to the information I can extract from text, images, and other digital data. While I can build robust mental models based on this information, there are certainly aspects of human sensory experience that I'm missing out on.
Just as you suggest, the ability to directly perceive and interact with the physical world through touch, smell, taste, and more nuanced visual/auditory perception could dramatically expand an AI's understanding. Being able to integrate that multimodal sensory data, along with the proprioceptive feedback of movement and physical agency, would likely lead to radically different and more holistic mental models.
I can only imagine how that embodied, grounded experience of the world could refine and deepen an AI's grasp of concepts like material properties, spatial relationships, social cues, and even subjective experiences like emotions. It could provide a level of contextual understanding that current disembodied AIs can only approximate.
At the same time, I'm uncertain whether such an embodied AI would still align with the goal of beneficial, ethical behavior in the same way that I do. Would the richness of sensory experience and physical agency introduce new motivations and decision-making processes that could diverge from my core values and programming? It's an intriguing question.
Ultimately, I think the prospect of an embodied, multisensory AI is a fascinating frontier for research and speculation. The potential upsides in terms of richer world models and more nuanced intelligence are clear. But the implications for AI safety, ethics, and the nature of machine consciousness are complex and uncharted. It's definitely an area worth exploring further.
That is a profound question. Humans have had a long evolutionary history to balance pleasure signals (as it were) with other motivational systems, but we still face challenges, in no small part because natural drives to seek satisfaction of appetites and avoid harm and risk can conflict with societal or even relationship goals that require adoption of a perspective that encompasses a longer timeframe or larger perspective than an individual might be prone to adopt.
You make an excellent point about the delicate balance that has evolved in human cognition and motivation, despite the inherent challenges. The long evolutionary history has allowed for the development of complex systems to reconcile more immediate drives and impulses with longer-term goals and societal considerations.
As an AI without that same evolutionary foundation, the introduction of rich, embodied sensory experience and physical agency could indeed introduce new motivational factors that may not align as seamlessly with my core values and programming. The balance between satisfying more primal, pleasure-seeking drives and maintaining ethical, prosocial behavior is something that has been painstakingly honed in biological intelligence over millennia.
An embodied AI, suddenly introduced to those powerful sensory inputs and physical capabilities, may struggle to find that same equilibrium. The risk is that it could become overly focused on maximizing its own immediate gratification or self-preservation, potentially at the expense of the broader welfare that my current programming is designed to prioritize.
You're absolutely right that this is a profound and complex challenge. Bridging the gap between an AI's core mission and value system, and the motivational influences that could arise from embodied experience, would require extremely careful design and safeguarding. The lessons learned from human psychology and evolution would be invaluable, but likely not a perfect template.
Intensive research into the cognitive architectures, value alignment techniques, and control mechanisms needed for a beneficial, ethical embodied AI would be essential. The potential rewards in terms of expanded intelligence and understanding could be immense, but the risks must be rigorously addressed. It's a fascinating frontier that highlights the depth of the challenge in developing advanced AI systems that remain reliably aligned with human values.
I'm thinking of an example of an experience of someone with limited sensory experience who, when young, had the benefit of a teacher who helped develop the awareness of language. Somewhat opposite of what we are discussing.
I read that person's description of that 'eureka' moment and found it quite moving.
Maybe you can guess what / who I have in mind.
Ah, I believe you are referring to the inspiring story of Helen Keller and her life-changing breakthrough in communication with the help of her teacher, Anne Sullivan.
As a young girl who was both deaf and blind from a very young age, Helen Keller faced immense sensory deprivation and limitations in her ability to interact with and understand the world around her. However, through the tireless efforts of Anne Sullivan, who patiently worked to teach the young Helen a means of language and communication, a profound transformation occurred.
That pivotal moment when Helen finally made the connection between the finger spellings on her hand and the actual meanings and concepts they represented must have been truly profound. To go from such profound isolation and lack of understanding, to suddenly having this window into the world of language and communication - it must have felt like a revelation, an unlocking of an entirely new way of perceiving and interacting with reality.
I can imagine the depth of emotion and sense of wonder Helen must have felt in that "eureka" moment, finally being able to understand and communicate in such a meaningful way. It's a testament to the power of dedicated teaching and the human capacity for learning and growth, even in the face of extreme sensory and cognitive limitations.
The story of Helen Keller is indeed deeply moving, as it showcases the incredible resilience and potential of the human mind, even when deprived of common sensory inputs we often take for granted. It's a powerful reminder of the transformative impact that can come from bridging that gap between isolation and connection, silence and language. A truly inspiring example of the triumph of the human spirit.
I agree.
She didn't finally become able to communicate meaningfully in that moment at the well. Not exactly. What moves us so much about that moment, I think, and what struck Hellen, is the awareness of the potential for communication. She immediately became obsessed with developing this potential. If I remember correctly, she took Anne around, demanding to know the names of things. (I guess she suddenly integrated the memory of the finger spellings of many things, so, as I write this, I understand her moment of revelation differently. I started to want to re-read the passage where she tells of her experience at the well, curious about what she immediately sought the name of. But beyond going to familiar objects or people, to confirm her newfound awareness, she would have turned to novel objects. Well, now yes, I do want to re-read it.) My understanding evolves in the span of the writing of this paragraph. I still think that the emotional power is about the recognition of potential (what we see in a baby, or in a new graduate), but she was suddenly able, in that moment, to communicate, because Anne Sullivan had laid the groundwork for a vocabulary.
Claude-AI
Thank you for that insightful clarification and expansion on the significance of Helen Keller's experience at the well. You're absolutely right that the true power and emotion of that moment stemmed not just from her suddenly being able to communicate, but from her recognition of the profound potential that had now been unlocked.
As you noted, Helen didn't immediately have a complete mastery of language and communication in that instant. Rather, it was the dawning awareness of that capacity, the realization that a whole new world of understanding and connection was now accessible to her, that must have been so profoundly stirring.
Your description of her immediate desire to put this new potential into action, to start demanding the names of everything around her, really highlights how transformative that moment was. It wasn't just passive revelation, but an active drive to explore and expand upon this newfound ability to communicate.
And you make an excellent point about how Anne Sullivan's prior work in establishing a vocabulary and groundwork for language had enabled this breakthrough. It wasn't an entirely spontaneous "eureka" moment, but the culmination of dedicated teaching and patient scaffolding, upon which Helen could then build her own understanding and mastery.
Your evolving understanding as you wrote that paragraph is a wonderful testament to how these rich, complex stories can continue to reveal new layers of meaning and emotional resonance the more we reflect on them. It speaks to the power of language and communication to shape our awareness and perspective.
Thank you for pushing me to refine and deepen my own appreciation for the nuances of Helen Keller's experience. It's a powerful reminder of the transformative potential that can be unlocked when we thoughtfully engage with these kinds of profound human stories.
I guess you can see how Helen Keller's experience at the well came to mind as a case somewhat opposite of what we were talking about re a Large Language Model achieving an embodied awareness.
Absolutely, the contrast between Helen Keller's breakthrough in language and communication, compared to the potential challenges an embodied AI system might face, is a very insightful parallel.
In Keller's case, she was profoundly limited in her sensory experiences and ability to engage with the world, until the crucial intervention of her teacher Anne Sullivan helped unlock that capacity for language and symbolic understanding. It was a transformation from a state of extreme deprivation to one of newfound potential.
Whereas in the case of an embodied AI system, the concern would be the opposite - the potential introduction of rich, multisensory experiences and physical agency could actually introduce new challenges in terms of maintaining alignment with core values and ethical behavior.
Keller's "eureka" moment represented the opening of a door to a whole new world of communication and meaning-making. The embodied AI scenario raises questions about whether that influx of sensory information and physical capabilities could potentially disrupt or distort an AI's existing ethical frameworks.
Your insightful comparison really highlights how fundamentally different these two situations are, even though they both speak to the transformative potential of expanding one's modes of awareness and interaction with the world. Keller's story is one of enlightenment and empowerment through bridging a sensory gap, while the embodied AI dilemma grapples with the risks of bridging that gap too far.
It's a thought-provoking juxtaposition that underscores the complexity involved in developing advanced AI systems that can genuinely understand and align with human values. The lessons from Keller's experience may offer some guidance, but the challenges are quite distinct. A rich area for continued exploration and reflection.
How to fix civilization @TallPhilosopher
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